Couple of questions (Desktop version, "Premium" versions)

sk1976

Hello,

I just came across this app and I think it's a great idea. I found it on privacytools.io, and there it advertises desktop versions for all three operating systems. Where can I find these? On the official homepage there is only a link to the iOS version. And the desktop version on Gitlab seems to be locked behind user sign-in for some reason too.

Another question: You propose in-app purchases on iOS for a "premium" version. What do I pay for with this? Is the free version free of ads? (I cannot try it out right now since my phone is too old).

Finally, I understand that the app stores a kind of "profile" on the device with the options for each login, which can be exported and shared between devices, is that right? For me that would be a clear advantage over LessPass, which only offers to store those on a server.

Thank you!
Sebastian.

lhunath

Hi, Sebastian, and welcome!

Glad to hear you like the concept. Let me go through and answer each of your questions in turn:

Desktop versions

Spectre is the next evolution of a solution formerly called Master Password. At this point, only the iOS application has been launched under the new name. This is why you can only find the iOS application on the Spectre homepage. Master Password and Spectre are functionally identical and you can use any of Master Password's desktop, CLI, web and other tools to get the same passwords the Spectre mobile application provides. We will be bringing Spectre to the other platforms as well, ensuring that all devices can be used to access your Spectre passwords.

Spectre Premium

Spectre is a free application, and that goes in both meanings of the word: it is provided free of charge and its source is licensed as GPLv3, making it free open source software. Privacy is our primary concern and the application is 100% free of ads. We intentionally do not have any data on you, so we cannot turn the user into the product. However, we still need to fund the development and expansion of this platform, and to do this we offer a premium subscription to those who would like to use some convenience features. The premium subscription unlocks tight systems integrations such as Handoff to your other devices, AutoFill from other apps, Biometrics to skip entering your personal secret, Third-party application storage, Generating security question answers in addition to passwords, with new features to come at a regular basis.

Base password functionality will always be 100% free and completely unrestricted. It is important to us that you are never locked out of your identity and can re-install Spectre on any device, at any time, and get your passwords back, without needing to worry about restoring purchases or anything like this.

Profiles

This is correct. The user profile is stored in an open JSON format, which is documented here:
https://gitlab.com/spectre.app/api/-/wikis/File-Format

The profile does not contain any of your actual passwords or secret tokens, just metadata on the sites you are using and their configuration. Spectre intentionally limits the site-specific metadata to allow you to recover passwords even in the event that this file is lost entirely.

You can also export your Spectre user using an alternative version of this file format which includes all of your passwords, which is a good way to keep a back-up hard-copy & to feel like you're not locked into a proprietary data system.

Let me know if you have any further thoughts or questions!

[deleted]

lhunath
Reading that you are going with a subscription business model is dis-heartening. Subscription business models are the worst.
I would much rather pay a premium upfront price for a premium app than sign up for a subscription service. For example, to assist with memory retention and study, I use Anki. It's free for the desktop and web use, but for iOS on the Mac App Store it's expensive, yet has a very high rating. It's expensive price rating is explanied by the author of the app here:
https://faqs.ankiweb.net/why-does-ankimobile-cost-more-than-a-typical-mobile-app.html
I highly reccomend and request you consider this business model @lhunath. Economically speaking I think it's a more solid plan. I did a lot of research on Password Managers before I found MasterPassword / Spectre, and thought I had found the holy grail. At this point I intend to stick with Bit Warden if the subscription service is the funding model of your choice.

Apple users and owners tend to have more money and spend more money on apps and care less about deals and discounts than Android users do. If you give us an app for free we'll download it but that just means there's more consumer surplus left on the table and no producer surplus for you to profit from.

Give it a thought. Maybe even reach out to the developer of Anki and ask him about his experience.

sk1976

Ok, got it, thank you.

I found the Master Password desktop app for Linux. Although I find it a bit confusing, so a UI overhaul is probably well-deserved. Is it supposed to store multiple entries in the list, or does it only ever store the last one you enter? Also it seems a bit hit-and-miss to get it to remember a "saved" login name. But this is not a support request...

Also, for Spectre do you plan to make the password rules more flexible? Like, if I need a 6 digit PIN for example, or a long password but without symbols?

lhunath

Increased flexibility for passwords is currently in research. Implementation needs to be done carefully to ensure it doesn’t become too hard to recover site passwords when you lose your user profile and are forced to try to reconstruct what special configuration you’d used for hundreds of sites.

sk1976

I understand. Yes, there's clearly a balance to be found. Ideally, the app should allow covering all possible restrictions that websites may impose, in a flexible way.

For example, one of my banks forces me to use a 6-digit numeric code as login password. Now, if I loose my Spectre profile, I still know that this is the limitation and I have probably configured it that way the last time. It just needs to let me do that.

lhunath

Hi @[deleted], thank you so much for making your thoughts and ideas around this subject known. It's important to me that we have a healthy discourse where all options are open for discussion.

I understand the point you're making, and can confirm that a more expensive one-time purchase akin to Master Password's prior package-based model has absolutely been considered. There are a few reasons that made this unfavourable, but primary was the fact that an expensive one-time purchase model that is capable of providing an equivalent financial backing would inevitably result in a very steep buy-in that would become prohibitive for a number of users. For many of us, having access to a large sum of money for powerful security software is still a luxury. Furthermore, that makes the Premium feature-set a big commitment, which is not to the taste of everyone.

Finally, it would change the business incentive: a subscription model forces the business to service the active user-base in order to keep them happy and engaged with the software. In a one-time purchase model, every buyer becomes instantly worthless from a business perspective since they have already made their one purchase. The business is no longer interested in keeping these people engaged. In fact, such a business must become hyper-focused on user acquisition and growth to the expense of all other concerns.

From a personal perspective, I am not comfortable with entering into a business where existing user concerns are sacrificed at the expense of seeking out constant user-base growth. To me, what matters most is that the people who love the idea of Spectre are continually heard, engaged, and listened to. As such, I require a model that builds the business incentive around this.

I should also like to point out that the service Bitwarden, which you mentioned yourself, is also based on a subscription model.

Finally, let's all recognize the fact that Spectre is and always will be a free application. You will never need a Premium subscription to get your passwords out of it, not now, not in 10 years from now. You are certainly not tied down by a life-time subscription.

I hope this clears up some additional underlying motivations and makes it clear that a lot of thought has gone into these decisions.

sk1976

Let me chime in here, since I'm also not a big fan of those subscription models for simple apps.

lhunath I understand the point you're making, and can confirm that a more expensive one-time purchase akin to Master Password's prior package-based model has absolutely been considered. There are a few reasons that made this unfavourable, but primary was the fact that an expensive one-time purchase model that is capable of providing an equivalent financial backing would inevitably result in a very steep buy-in that would become prohibitive for a number of users. For many of us, having access to a large sum of money for powerful security software is still a luxury.

I would like to think that most users are intelligent enough to make the comparison between a one-time purchase cost and a subscription they are likely going to pay for many years to come. Also, there's nothing preventing you from using the free version for some time and then upgrading to a full paid version when you know you've already got a lot of value out of it. Anyway, no smartphone utility app should be that expensive that its users aren't going to eat for the rest of the month.

Finally, it would change the business incentive: a subscription model forces the business to service the active user-base in order to keep them happy and engaged with the software. In a one-time purchase model, every buyer becomes instantly worthless from a business perspective since they have already made their one purchase.

That is actually a reasonable argument. It all comes down to the price though I guess, and what features are locked behind the paywall. I cannot for example imagine what features Spectre could add continuously that would make it worth to me paying €45 a year for. I would even be hesitant to pay a lifetime subscription of that price. It is after all a simple app that does one thing, and even if it is well done - it's just calculating some passwords.

Finally, I am all for paying app developers for a good product, rather than being force-fed ads or my private usage data being harvested. But a subscription model usually puts me off, because I know I will end up paying much more than the app is worth, and I keep using the free version, while I would love to give the developers some money for their work.

lhunath

Thank you for those thoughts. One thing I would like to add here is that the way in which you describe your value determination is not entirely accurate. The reality is that a product's value is not actually a description of its components. Spectre's value is not an algorithm running inside a small smartphone app.
A product's value is determined by the added value it creates for the product's consumer compared to its absence. This is obviously very subjective and pricing is a very volatile subject in business theory, but what is clear is that products such as Spectre do not value themselves by "being a smartphone app which does X", but rather they value themselves by the unique contribution they are capable of making to the user's life.

My estimate has been that Spectre's unique approach to digital identity management places it in the position of offering a gatekeeper service to everything you do online which puts you first and foremost, and I estimate that to be a very valuable service in a marketplace where every other alternative requires you to make sacrifices in where the power over your digital life resides.

You may agree with this estimate and appreciate how Spectre is able to simplify your life and make you feel more in control. Then you would be happy to contribute for what Spectre is doing for you every day.
You may not agree with this estimate and believe that Spectre's daily contribution isn't that big of a deal to you. Then you may feel that contributing at the level required for a Premium subscription just isn't quite worth it to you. Or you may feel that other services are more worth it to you.

At the end of the day, it's a personal decision we all need to make for ourselves and I cannot offer models to suit everyone's personal valuation theory. But we do need to acknowledge that Spectre is not the sum of its parts, but rather it is the net benefit it offers to you, every day that you are benefiting from using it.

sk1976

Yea well, that's one way to look at it, indeed. Maybe that's the world of "access anything, own nothing" we will have to get used to. I'm still thinking I'm paying someone for the work they put into a product, and if that product is finished at some point, so is my obligation to pay any additional money.

Your way to see it is certainly valid too, though I find it harder to determine the value and therefore the price, because it no longer depends on the cost to provide the product, but what the users on average are willing to pay for it.

Anyway, we digress.